de Loubar-Tar kennel
 

Hi Pavel and Philippe,

I'm member of the Dutch Society of CsW and the Chairman is C.A. Keizer. She
is a "top"breeder and owned about 40 CsW and Saarloos Wolfdogs.
She lives in Fench too, in the North near the Belgiun border.
I' ve bought my dog there and the name of my CsW is Kaisa van Rijneckerhof.

John Marijn.

French mailing list is open!
 

Hi, John,

Welcome to the list... I know Cornelia, who lives 20mn from my home before
migrating to the french Ardennes...

If you speak french, don't hesitate to join the french forum too ;-)

Philippe

French mailing list is open!
 

The breedername of C. Keizer is " the Louba Tar " and not
Rijneckerhof,and a lot of dogs isn't the same as " top"breeder.

Christa

French mailing list is open!
 

Hi friends,
I see, that started here little bit discussion about "top" breeders. I dont like
this word, because always is not 100% true.
You must know, that CsW is a very young race and is not "well-ballanced" in
genetical sense. Its the reason, why you can found in one litter so different
puppies. When today somebody have a "well-ballanced" CsW breed, then is it only
because use often a inbreed. And its a very wrong idea by so small population,
like our race have. Some breeders presenting own breed like "top breed with
excellent exterior, working talent and from HD-free line". Its not true and some
owners of puppies from similary breeders just were suprised, when from so
presentated breed growing up only very average CsW. And with HD is it absolutely
lie, which can make very big problems (some of us know just more examples).
I dont want personalised now. But everybody must know, that CsW is a working dog.
The top dog is the dog, which have not only lot of titles from shows, but have
some working successes as well. We dont need e.g. beautiful dogs, but shy. Its
not a target and its against the breed strategy and standard of race.
If we just want use words "top breeder", then this breeder must "produced" dogs,
they according standard and every litter is more and more improve. Its a really
breed. "Top breeder" live for the race and make a representation. "Top breeder"
keep the all breed regulation (basicaly czech or slovakian breeding regulations -
bonitation and HD test).
Today we see by lot of breeders around the Europe, that they collect the shows
titles only and when e.g. visit some of our CsW meetings, where is training as
well, then this "intersupermultichampions" is shy and only looking for a short
way to running out. Its a not CsW. In standard you can read just in first
paragraph, that CsW "... ...".
I dont want put here a strong critic about a CsW shows outside CZ or SK, but let
me write only my short experience. My Hoky is CsW absolutelly out of standard (I
dont want say, that he is ugly. Not. But according standard have enought
defects.). In CZ or SK can get on shows in the best case valuation "very good".
Outside of countries of origin (CZ and SK) we get always "excellent" only and
today Hoky just have 2 CACIB, 2 CWC (polish CAC), 1 CACA (Austrian CAC) and 2 BOB
!!! Only from italian club shows have always "very good" because there judged
czech club judges. Whats can I say about the shows in other countries today ? Its
comedy only.
And back to basic thema. "Top breeder" come with his dog to czech or slovakian
club show or bonitation and there get the really true valuation of his dogs (of
course "more or less", sometimes more, sometimes less :o), we are not a best
objective people in the world as well). Same like by English bulldogs is most
valuable titel from Crufts, then for CsW is it titel Club winner of Czech or
Slovak. And now check the results of club shows and bonitations in CZ and SK and
you will see, who from other countries is the "top breeder".
Care about the race and keep the breeding regulations, its a basicaly target of
every CsW club in every country. E.g. SCTW (CsW club in Switzerland) go just more
years on the good way. Have a strictly breeding regulations, bonitation and HD is
necessary. Germany started just now, after years of big problems, to take a good
direction as well. But other countries and clubs dont move yet and are
practically only the group of CsW owners, no really breeders club.
Think about it.

I see, that I wrote now maybe longest english text in my life :o). Sorry.

Pavel

French mailing list is open!
 

you are absolutely right.
regards,michael

French mailing list is open!
 

it's a long text ,but you write it better than I can,but my hairs go
stand up if I hear the name Topbreeder,most of the time it means
breeding a lot of dogs.

Christa

de Louba Tar kennel
 

hi folks sorry to butt in on this thread but at times my posts do not get printed, some photos of the de louba tar kennels in france, i have held these back from you all for legal reasons but now action has started to put an end to the french breeder CORRY KEIZER i can let you see the real truth behind this breeder, here are just some pics from her kennels, WARNING some pics may cause distress but you must see them if you would like a copy of the full disc email me your address and one will be posted, also there are other issues regarding the registration of litters that will be released very soon, thank you p winder uk
to view pics http://ukwolfdogs.com/14.html

How deplorable to see such magnificent creatures so skinny and filthy. How many dogs are housed at the kennel? Did the dogs pictured in the mud have shelter from the elements? :cry:

Thirty two dogs?! :evil::evil::evil: http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/dbase/o36.html

For that, i must say, that database of WOLFDOG.ORG is not correct.
I think amount of dogs not hold true by many owner / breeder.

I think amount is less by many breeders, even, can be more as well.
As i know, there is many breeders / owners, who do not "update" their data's after every dog changing home / passed away.
-Maybe some do not update at all?
-Maybe Margo & Co have not time either to update data all the time.

We must also remember, that amount of dogs is not direct indicator for dogs condition, people can keep dog / dogs in bad conditions, even they have only 1 or 2. There is also "big kennels" with good conditions
(even some, which i had visit) If you look wolfdog.org database, there is many breeder/owner who have several dogs, not only one or two dog, but what is real amount, can be a different.

-Suski

maybe, Suski, but you know Mrs. K. is also a well-known breeder of Saarlooswolfhonden. So I really believe 30 x 2 dogs could be concerned.

Paul, do you know something concrete about the action which has started?

cheers
Angelika

Its horrible to see such lovely dogs kept in such poor condition, its such a shame when theres people out there who can give these dogs a good home but cant becose were not aloud over here, hope she's not aloud to keep dogs ever again. hope the dogs find a good home

I have visited sleddog kennels with 70-100 happy dogs in good condition and they all had their own dry "house" to go in..so it's not always about the number of dogs..
but I have never seen dogs so skinny and bad kept before. It makes me angry. It does not seem like a usual "animal lovers" kennel to treat dogs like that, not in my eyes. What is going to happen with all those dogs?

You're probably right, Suski, but the size of the kennel is not the core issue here, isn't it? It only indicates the scale of the problem - it would be easier to rehome 2-3, even 5 dogs than 20 or more. :|

Paul, I suppose everybody would be grateful for more information and more details, such as e.g. when and by whom these photos were taken and what steps were taken....
You've publicly made a serious accusation - honestly, it's hard to belive any breeder would keep his/her animals in such conditions - it would be totally irrational in the long run. Maybe the owner is sick or so, can't cope and needs help instead of criticism?

Has anybody else visited the place or bought pup/pups from this kennel? Can Paul's information be confirmed by others? Has the issue been ever discussed on the French forum?

Hi,

this is purely disgusting.
Yes, these conditions can be confirmed by a friend of mine who purchased a Saarlooswolfhond in the early 90's in Holland at her former puppy mill.
The conditions weren't much better at that time as he told me.
I haven't been to her place in France but a few other people reported the same as Paul had shown on his pics.
Another question is Paul, are you sure that all these CSW's are purebred or could they been mixed with Saarlooswolfhonden?
There are a few rumors around. But that's another story.

Cheers,

Michael

That place need help and very soon :cry:
And i know that place it´s not onlyone.

I am not really surprised about this. What surprises me, is that the conditions at this (or certain other kennels) were for a long time "accepted" or "ignored" and all of a sudden, it is a big thing and actions are to be taken.

What took so long? Or so to say, what made the change..?

I´ve seen in real some Louba Tar dogs in October 2005 on the special CSW dog show in Hoenderloo. They were all skinny and light-boned, very different from wolfdogs that I am used to see. I posted the photos at that time, there was an article about that dog show. Nobody was stressed about the look of the dogs at that time. Why now, all of a sudden?

Some of the photos of Louba Tar dogs, that I took at Hoenderloo, you can see here.

Btw., as a price for the winners, dog food for medium sized dogs was given.... :roll:


I know that rumour too. I did not visit the kennel personally, but I´ve made my opinion from the unified look of the Saarloos wolfdogs and Czechoslovakian wolfdogs, that come from this kennel.. they all look the same, more or less. Btw., if you look well, you can see at least one picture from Pacino, that in one cage there is CSW and Saarloos together.

hi there were 119 dogs in total when i left in may 2004, this was adults and pups, paul

hi first of all my wife and i lived and worked at the de louba tar kennels for 18 mths, there was 49 dogs at the kennel in febuary 2002 we left in 2004 there was 199 dog at these kennel, we could not cope with the work, 15 hrs a day, there were other witnesses there when a friend and my self took the photos and made the videos, we did not report the matter because if you all remember in 2003 the French authorities went to kennels in mid France and destroyed over 40 dogs just because a breeder did not comply to regulations, we did not want this to happen as we loved all the dogs and knew them so well, we did seek help and it has taken a long time to assure the dogs will not be harmed, but action has started and things are now moving, as you all well know Mrs Keizer is both fit and well and still attends dog shows all over Europe, is still breeding and still selling dogs as you can see on this site as there is one or two needing new homes, so the answer to your question is the person sick or in ill health is NO, i can back up all i say both by photos and video clips, i also have independant witnesses who have all made statments, and all has been forwarded to the authorities, the dog conditions are only the tip of the iceburg there are other irregularities with this breeder that i am sorry i can not tell you about as there are other people involved , but as soon as i get word from Holland and France i will make it all public, paul uk

hi, yes i am sure there are other people who can supply photos and information, if you have anything it can be forwarded to me via email or post, i only need facts with evidence, rumors about people will always be here as they always have been, i only need evidence or people who are prepared to make and sign statments, and will be prepared to go to court if required, regards paul

goodnight everybody ... first thing...y m not a big breeder but y know mrs keizer 20years ago ...when she breed saarloos ..... well this pictures are (y think )so "manipulate action"!!!!y explain ...when it s rain ...sure yur dogs are so dirty and when it s spring or automn they change their coat ...sure they are not top of their beauty ...y visit keizer's kennel in summer and winter and can say that dogs are so nice and not dirty ...with pictures or movies yu can believe all yu see(hitler do this in propaganda..remember!!!!!) .....well now ...second things ::::y don t know mr paul(pacino) but y hear that version .../he live in keizer 's kennel 18months ...(with his wife and 7 dogs) and one day he leave for 4 months to go in travel and forget his dog.... to health of mr keizer ...after this experience ...he try a kennel in uk ...and want buy some dogs (because so good quality in dog show )to keizer kennel ...but she refuse this proposition ...and of course mr pacino don' t accept that and so so ungry and try all negative action to her ....and try all he can do to insult ms keizer ...A proove about that???? HOW MR PACINO HAVE THIS .... PICTURES????????????????????????if he don' t have an friendly intimity relation of live with mrs keizer before ???well y believe allways what y can see alone and y m not a "lamb who follow the group" ...BEWARE about that !!!!!!!!!!!....and ONLY ONE VERSION is not THE TRUTH ......y don t know mr pacino but y hate someone try to discradite an other person like politik men ...if yu have private problem with someone yu keep this private and not do this in public action like a forum ....this is my opinion ....y don' t give bad jugment if y don 't see alone the real personality about someone ...y just can say that mrs keizer work a lot for selection and try to have very good dog in show for future owners ....dogs don 't live with her ...BUT SHE LIVE with them .....(y hope yu understand this idea and notion of that)....y don' t think she 's a "rich girl" but y think she spend time and money in what she love : her passion ....and stop to talk if yu never meet her before ....y ever consult her about full questions about selection and breeding ...and all she explain is really true ....she have 20/30 years ago experience in this race (saarloos and tchek)and just for that y think we can have little respect ...that's all !!!!! greatings ...furyos

me agin ...just a questionfor mr paul ... ...y don t know yu and y don t juge yu of course BUT can yu explain mr paul why yu wait 3 years to write this and send this pictures ???? if yur sentiments in love about dogs contitions are top... why yu do a late reaction on this forum ???? and just explain to me WHY???? ,, reality please ....(in private reply if yu want) .... furyos

hi i will reply on line as i have nothing to hide, i have already given my reason as to why it has taken so long, so you must first of all read my mails, rain and bad weather does not cause dogs to get thin, nore does it cover a kennel in dog poo that has clearly been there for a while, as for selective breeding, well you like everyone else will have to wait a while yet then you can mail me again and explane about MRS Keizers selective breeding programe for you are in for a nasty shock, i have wanted to make this public for a long time but had to wait on the { red tape} to be sorted by the authorities, also to make sure the dogs will be safe as the French authorities have as you all know put down over 40 dogs at a kennels in France, i and others have made statements and given evidence and we will let the f.c.i. and the courts decide who is correct, i assure you we will win our case hands down, best regards paul uk

hi first of all i do not hate MRS Keizer, but only what she has been doing with the dogs, and what other people who buy her dogs do not know about them, including things with pedigrees and false registration, did you know MRS kEIZER HAS NO BREEDERS LICENCE IN fRANCE,,,, well you do now... i did get my first czech via Mrs Keizer but it was not from her kennel , surprised// i left France to have the first litter of Czechs in uk.. i have owned and bred dogs successfully in uk for over 30 yrs , my bitch akita produced the top winning akita bitch in usa of all time, also the top winning dog A ustralia, so i am not an novice at dogs or breeding, I HAVE NEVER BOUGHT A DE LOUBA TAR DOG,,, if i didnt have good relations with MRS kEIZER THEN WHY DID I STAY 18 MTHS,,,, it took a long time to discover what was going on, i then asked questions and found someone who has worked a long time to stop this kennels, with there help we now have all we need, yes at present you only have my side of things and i do understand that if you are a friend of Mrs Keizers that you have every right to be upset, but you will be very very upset soon, but not with me,,, do you really think i would put this on a web site if i could not prove all i say,, surely Mrs Keizer would have a solisitor contact me for slander, or deformission of caracter, in case Mrs Keizer has not my details here they are,
mr paul winder
station farm
station road
appledore
kent
tn26 2dg.
thank you best regards paul..

Dear Paul,

I am surprised by your charges, they are extremly serious. I'm also surprised the way you made it public in this forum if there are currently legal actions started and not statued yet.

My own little experience: I don't know personnaly Mrs Keizer, we only exchanged emails about the breed, all what she said to me was right and clever (I can judge it I'm PhD graduaded in genetic).

I would be glad if you could explain more.

Best regards,

Anthony

hi everybody;..yes y 'm agree with elf...y think that yur charges are so so important ..... and see on a private war ...but this is just my opinion ...mr paul you are free ....and you can think and do what yu think the best for yur mind ...BUT y don' t think that the solution is on this forum .... that's all ...yur image can became dark also....but yu are adult guy and it's so easy to have just one version .....y study in the pass law (but y m not lawer)and y think that yur acts on this forum are little too mutch in their foundments .... y try to respect all people and y prefer stop my intervention on this reply NOW!!! ....it's not my war !!!!!!!!!!!!!!.....regards ..furyos

Well, I just know Mrs. Keizer from one dog show and of stories of several Saarloos owners and the (very reliable) person Michael talked of - none of them positive.
I don´t know many of her dogs all I have seen haven´t been very good, looking at the standart and all of them have been shy but that may be accidential, maybe I only saw the wrong dogs.
But I just had a look at the datas of her kennel at wolfdog.org and besides the fact that none of her breeding dogs ever made a bonitation and that she never bothered to show them to a specialised judge or to show their HD-results, I have to say that for me a good selection and breeding program is something very different. She repeated the O-litter pairing one year later and the A-litter pairing 4 years later, if you look at the pedigrees there is not much variety over 10 years.
I personally think there are a lot of people that are much better sources for information and breeding for our breed.

So you may be right about her kind of dog keeping but I don´t know anybody going to official bonitations and clubshows with judges that know their job, that would agree with you about the selection and genetic point. So for me that kind of argumentation is a little bit strange.

Ina


Ina

hi its not a war, i feel it is my duty to both the czechoslovakian wolfdogs and the saarloos wolfhounds that have to live like this, i lived with these dogs for a long time and loved everyone of them, when i left two of my friends came to see us, when we made the photos and videos, we went to the kitchen area all four people in that room broke down and cried, yet we could not do anything for fear of the Frence authorities would destroy the dogs, it will all become clear very soon, i put this on the forum because the time was right and i want to make it clear, I and others want this breeder to be brought to justice, you will be amazed at what has been going on for over 15 yrs in Europe with the czech and saarloos, and the people involved, i want the dog world to know the facts, and when they come out then i am free to be critisized if it is felt nessesary, i respect people as a rule but when breeding dogs you are responsable for what you breed and sell, and if it is not correct then you sell dogs under fraudulent lies, the czechs and saarloos from these kennels look nothing like or even come in to there breed standards/// paul

I'm not defending or attacting de Louba Tar, I know nothing about the breeder. Ina's comments sound very reasonable.... thanks for bringing some common sense into the discussion, Ina. :)

Paul, I'm trying hard to follow your way of reasoning, but could you try to be a little more precise? It would really help us understand your position.
What happend to make the time right? French regulations've changed? You managed to get some authorities promise the dogs will not be exterminated? Maybe evidence was compiled? Or something else's happened? Tell us. Otherwise it looks strange - you looked after those skinny dogs every day for 18 months, left the place and now, after a few years, all of the sudden begin an "action"....and even now it's not clear what sort of action

Well, what has been going on? Tell us what you have in mind. I suppose lots of things have been going on - some very positive and some very nasty. We hear occassionaly about both. But what do YOU mean exactly - facts, facts please.

When, where and how will they come out? Is there a case in court? Did you inform the police? Maybe a TV programme is being made?

I suppose you have your truth, you reasons and probably evidence. But this is a public place and if you accuse somebody of something it's not enough to just say "one day you'll find out". You either provide good evidence, or tell exactly where and when one can see the evidence or ....write nothing. Otherwise it raises doubts. Anything can be written on the forum, as you probably know, and it's very hard to depict what is true, and what isn't.

What really matters is the condition of the dogs. It would be good to obtain some objective, reliable and recently confirmed info, not just old photos.

I hope, that you have carefully collected and saved all the hard evidence for your upcomming battle, before you made this public and that the time is really right. Because otherwise it can happen, that at the moment when police or veterinary control or other responsible officers enter the kennels, they will find them spotlessly clean, repared and fitted with all possible and impossible equipment, because with this topic you just gave the breeder excellent warning.

I agree with Ina, unfortunatelly, that I have never heard anything positive about de Louba Tar kennel, and the Louba Tar dogs, that I have met personally, were all shy and very, very skinny. However, according to the breeder they were apparently at show condition, because she seemed very proud of them.. :shock:

Sorry, but I disagree here with you. Very good dog in show does not mean excellent dog. And always, always the standard should be kept.
De Louba Tar does not x-ray the dogs (or at least, the results are not known), it does not do bonitations, and the selection in breeding, if there is any, is rather unclear. Most of the dogs from this kennel look very, very different than standard CSW, sorry to say.
Perhaps they might be winning dog shows in Netherlands or France, when judges, friends of Mr. Keizer are judging. But the very same dogs would not get better than very good, if they were judged by judges, specialists to the breed. Which is why you will never see these dogs at such dog shows.
If that´s selection, it is very incorrect, if I say it nicely. If I am blunt, as usual, I say it is no selection at all, just mass production of puppies.

By what one measures experience with the race? By amount of puppies, produced in one kennel? Or by amount of dogs, one had kept in his kennels and never did anything with them during the years? Or by amount of dog shows, one had time to visit? :roll:

I had met people, who considered themselves dog experts, because they had dogs at home for more than twenty years. Yet they did not understand their dogs basic behaviour and their dogs did not even have the basic obedience. :shock:

I used to breed at home rabbits for more than ten years, should I be considered a rabbit specialist now? I don´t think so. :stupido

Ina, please notice that I said "we only exchanged emails about the breed" and not said "I analyse all the breeding program". This is quiet different, this is a very serious story so everyone has to choose carefully its words and read carefully eachother.

Anthony

I don´t see any sick dogs.
Some dog are little light conditions but not too thin.But i can´t say anything only about pics.

I have seen Mrs Keizer ones whit his saarloos and these dog was look nice and healty.

Pacino do you have summertime pics?

it has been very frustrating for us as we had to gather lots of evidence, it has taken a long time, we can not work on hear say, we needed hard evidence that could be used in court, we needed wittnesses to make statements, photo, videos, there are other people involved as well, so yet more evidence was needed, it took over a year to find just one dog we needed, and it has been hard every day as in our hearts we knew that the dogs we so despiratly wanted to help were still living in hell,, our evidense has been sent to the authorities and other places, untill we get the reply i can not say anything, i was told i could now show the photos and some videos, and i put them up right away to make sure people could see the conditions of the dogs, in your mail posted to day it states {all we see is old photos /////} for your benifit look at the last photo on my web site IT WAS TAKEN TWO WEEKS AGO..... so nothing has changed,, i thought it would be of some use to expose this breeder and we ask no one to buy dogs from these kennels, but to help close them,, i am sorry that at present i can not disclose any more facts but it could affect the out come in court, and you must all understand this, my aim at present is to expose this breeder to the public and to make them aware of the health and conditions of these dogs, you have seen photos of dogs that were taken at dog shows and comments have been made on this web site about the dogs before, it is sad that you say give us evidence or say nothing at all, as it raises doughts,, do these photos i show leave anyone on this web site with any doughts that the dogs are living in terrible conditions, does it leave anyone with any doughts that these dogs are under weight, and does it leave anyone with any doughts that this breeder should not be allowed to own any dogs at all,, i think not, yes anyone can write on this site, the photos are not words they are evidence, and the same photos are with the authorities, they tell no lies at all,, so why would anyone dought what i say, i give you all evidence in the photos, as i said before the rest will follow and as soon as i know so will everyone else, regards paul

hi, have you looked at the photos??? you state {some dogs are light conditions} no the dogs are clearly under norished and very very thin, showing the complete out line of the full rib cadge,, have i any summer photos ? yes i have the only difference is the dogs are dry but still very thin,, the ardense in France is very cold and wet in the winter, so for at least 3-4 months of the year the dogs are wet and cold, they live outside and many of the dogs are out in compounds all night WITH NO SHELTER,, the czechs and saarloos are hardy dogs as we know and can with stand certain conditions, but a thin dog out all night in the rain and cold will not do very well, do you know that the condition of a dog in good health and of good weight will with stand the cold and wet conditions better than that of a thin and under norished dog ? well you do now,, for it is a true fact, no dog at all either fit and healthy or very thin should have to live in these conditions, i am very glad you are not the dog warden in my area ///// regards paul

hi , yes all the evidence is complete , the conditions is only one part of the evidence, and if the kennels were cleaned up it would not matter at all, in fact i hope the breeder is out there right now cleaning them,,, if you took a dog to a dog show n uk that looked like one from this kennel you would be arrested by the police or dog warden for cruelty to an animal,, you can not as one person give any time to your dogs when you own over 100 dogs, if i was at the kennel by myself i would start at 7:00 by the time i cleaned out the kennels and pens, cleaned the food bowls, changed the water. feed the dogs, cleaned out the bitchs with pups, fed the pups, changed the dogs round into the outside compounds it was 11:00 at night i would not stop for lunch or dinner, when finnished i would eat and wash then bed, 16 hrs flat out,, to get to know a dog here you would have to take it to bed with you,, it was not so bad when the 3 of us were working i then had time to take some dogs to the excercise area were i enjoyed many happy hours with the dogs, this was of coarse when the long summer nights were in, the winter in Ardense is very cold, we recorded wind chill of -34 you had to leave the hose pipe running while cleaning or it would freeze in less than 10 minutes, so for thin dogs it was very hard time, by the way not all dogs get thin from not being feed correct, some dogs get very frustrated being in kennel all day and bounce of the walls especially czechs,,, kennel mad,, regards paul

hi why are you surprised i made this public, are you not glad that we take action against this breeder, are you not glad that you now know the conditions the dogs have to live in, of coarse we take legal action we want it stoped for good, of coarse Mrs Keizer will be right she is a very well educated woman and very intelligent, and i did myself learn things from her, and i have been breeding dogs for 30 yrs, Mrs Keizer is very knowledgable about both the czech and saarloos breeds and i went there to learn before a took on a czechoslovakian wolfdog, this is even more reason why there is no excuse for the conditions the dogs live in, as you are phd graduate in genetics then you will know if you cross a poodle with a husky you cant call the offspring a poodle nor can you call it a husky MRS KEIZER ALSO KNOWS THIS////////

Thanks for your explanations, Paul. Keep us informed on developments.
Rona

Paul, I'm not glad the way you used this forum. For the rest it's not my position to judge or to post my thoughts regarding the lack of all the complete informations. I guess many of us should wait complements or justice informations before posting side way. One first justice principle: the doubt have to profit to the shown. At the present time you did not bring enough for the doubt to disappear, so you started a rumour (maybe many people know more about this story, but most of the people reading don't !). I wait more additions from you or the authorities, and will stop posting as it will be steril and contribute to the rumour (right now it's still a rumour).

I don't like to see such pictures posted without all the context detailed. I don't like the way you made it public and then said I have to wait to give more informations (so then my opinion is you should also have waited to post this). I know many rumours which ran this way and was wrong at the end ; but then, even the facts corrected it was to late, people were definitely spoiled.

To be clear to you: my contestation is the form you used, which is definitly wrong (even if all you said I right). The form you present it is very important, and there are rules to follow to be clean. I not habilitated to judge the rest and won't do in the name of my thoughts. So I wait for the end of the full story, which will be bad and sad in each case.

Anthony

I saw Keizer whit her dogs in EW-06 dogshow.These dogs were good condition.

How many times you have visit big kennels in Europe?

Yes. maybe there is problems but sometimes pics don´t tell trues. Yes i see so wet kennel and dogs and i don´t know what kind is conditions of dogs.

How many dogs there is so thin? You don´t tell that...

As you went to Louba Tar and there 49 dogs was these dogs in bad condition already? when this pictures taken?
You worked 18month there how many times vet or animalrescue people wist there?
Are this dogs in pictures worstest in this kennel?


My dogs lives inside house they sleep in my bed they eat everyday twice times and they can run and play many hours a day.
They don´t live outside kennel cage so you don´t have right to say anything about my dogs and my profecionity.

I working whit animals everyday (over 16years) and if i see something what you have sow i do something immediately.

Regards Satu.. how don´t know anything about dogs or animals

@ paul

I am very curious as to why you come out with these pictures now (you already gave them to the NVSWH close to 2 yrs ago ). You seem so confident about having a solid case.. Why risk your solid case for a little bit of exposure and stirring public opinion, why not strike hard after you have won the case?!

Furthermore i still remember your old website, where you showed a completely different image of the kennels, and i remember your beautifull pictures of the dogs at the agility place and of fe Skog in his kennel...
At what time where you stirring and misleading public opinion?
I still recall your wife at the show in luxemburg, and our conversation at that time.. could my english be so bad that i took her dissapointment in the kennel for plain out positivism and a wish to work together with Louba Tar kennels?

Is it why the situation was so appalling at the kennels that it took you 18 months to figure that out, is that why you and Corrie introduced the first TWH at crufts and , correct me if i am wrong, according to show results you co- owned a dog with her, and she showed also your great japanse for you , even after you have left the kennel?

I do not feel the need to defend CA Keizer, i have been there myself on several occasions, i do not depend on hearsay and images to make my opinion. Wished more people would do that!
But am curious to why your change of opinion ;)

Hi,

I think that many people from all over the world are reading this topic and they try to follow the evolution of this all. Many of them never heard of 'de Louba Tar' before, but most of them already heard other rumours about this kennel. Not only about (too) many dogs, bad conditions, skinny dogs, dogs looking more like jackals, no bonitation, no HD results, problems with pedigrees, crossings of Saarloos and Czech, etc, etc. Some of these are maybe just rumours, but most of them are true. I know people who have a dog of this kennel and they still haven't got a pedigree of their dog. To give only one example. Why are there problems with pedigrees? Strange things happen at 'the Louba Tar'.
I never met C. Keizer personally, but I can believe she's intelligent and ok, maybe she knows a lot about dogs. But why doesn't she put the theories in her mind into practice? Her dogs are not according to the standard. She probably knows enough about genetics to fix this problem.
You can talk and discuss endlessly about this subject. And it's easy to talk about where other people are making mistakes. But de Louba Tar is probably not the only kennel where things go wrong. But I'm glad that some people make these things public. Not so we can all critisize those breeders, but we can try to learn from them. It's not our task to judge other people. But it's good to know some things about other people, to be informed. What you do with this information, is your own choice.
Of topic, but I think we should coöperate more as breeders and active wolfdog owners. But because we're all afraid to be judged by others, we're scared talk about negative things that are going on in our own kennel. A breeder who would talk open about a genetic disease found in one of his dogs (which he or she uses to breed with), would be judged in the negative way. Why? Dogs with genetic diseases exist. It's not a shame to have a dog with for example HD E. But talk about it and try to find out together where this problem comes from. Maybe it's only because of an accident as a puppy, maybe there's a problem in his bloodline or a certain combination that causes this problem to become worse... But we all keep our mouths shut about our own problems :roll:. Together we could make a difference for the breed, not if we keep working on our own. But like I said, of topic.
Many people don't dare to give their comments on this topic, because they want to 'stay friends' with everyone and they don't discuss this publicly. I must say I don't want to judge anyone, not even C. Keizer, but I'm glad that some people have the *** to share this kind of information with others.

Greetings,

Liesbeth

"we should cooperate more as breeders and active wolfdog owners"

That is more than true. WE REALLY SHOULD. And not only because of healthyness, but also because unsuitable / untrustable future puppybuyers. Every time, if i do not sell a pup to someone, i have a reason for it. I do not make litters for keeping all pups by myself, or i do not sell my pups in ads (public) if i want keep all pups by me at home.
But there is always someone who will sell pup, sooner or later.
It feels like my work and selection is nothing.
Is it so, that as pups will go abroad, problems will go abroad as well?
Long distance = no problems?

Still, i must say, that there is TOO MANY unsuitable owners for wolfdogs. Breeders should co-operate and listen each others as they are selling pups. I think, nobody wants problematic dogs in own country.
(because wrong owners)
Even, there is lot of differences between countries, but for example nordic countries are very strict, and we do not need problematic owners / dogs in Nordic countries.

-Suski

Suski, you are right (though this theme is a bit off-topic). However, you and Liesbeth speak about breeders. But you have to keep in mind, that there are people among us, who call themselves breeders, yet in fact they are simply puppy producers, who do not care, to who they will sell their puppy, as long as they make money.
As long as these puppy producers will sell their pups to anyone who is ready to pay (and they of course advertise also here, on this site), there will always be unsuitable CSW owners, as well as later unwanted CSW dogs, CSW dogs in rescues or even euthanised.

hi i take no risk at all, all is complete, i only wait on word foe date, yes when i went to live in france there were 49 dogs and conditions were good, we planned to open wolfpark also, with friends from holland , as time went on, the numbers of dogs grew, we had to work very long days, we were over run with dogs, we had dogs living everywhere, dogs lived in pens in the garden, they had no kennels and slept under the trees, the dogs were feed every day, but dogs get thin and loose weight because they have no shelter, even the hardest of dogs with the thickest of coats will soon get cold. and worst of all is lying on wet and damp soil, many times we tried to leave but felt so much for the dogs we stayed , at the end we could cope no more , we wanted so much to phone the authorities but were very affraid as the french authorities do not hang about, mrs Keizer kennels are for 49 dogs only not 119, you can just imagine how the authorities would of sorted this out, they put down over 40 dogs the year before as a breeder failed to comply with regulations, we asked for building material, we asked to cut down in dogs, at the end we had friends visit when corrie was out, we had our friends call as we needed help, we wanted people to tell us it was best to leave, it was very hard to walk away but with help we decided what was best for the dogs, so yes the first lot of months were great, and we loved every minute, you have been to the kennels, have you been down to the cellar? have you been in maternity unit? no you have not for no one gets there,,,, did you visit when there was 119 dogs at the kennels? by the way i took all my great japanese dogs with me, corrie did breed the bitch that was in co ownership with me after i left and she did fordge my name to register the pups,,,,, ther are over 150 photos of the dogs and conditions at the kennels only 24 were supplied by me, other photos were taken by friends of corries who visited and then passed on to others with critical remarks, but still no one reports it , i sent a post to this site regarding the first litter of czechs born in luxemburg by Gabrial lyns, stating all the information on this litter was incorrect, it was not put on the site, even though i have evidense which proves other wise, i sent email to margo, maybe she will publish it onn site if you ask,,regards paul

what details do you want the photos are all taken at be louba tar kennels,,, it was made public to let people see the terrible conditions, what is wrong with that, i was told i could use the photos but not disclose other information as it was protected, a rumour is hear say ,, the photos are facts on paper, and will be and have been excepted as evidence so how are they rumours please explain?? the forum is used to greate topics of interest to other dog owners, breeders or lovers, i am well within my rights to post this on the forum as i think it is a complete disgrace the living conditions of the animals, how will it end sad if these poor dogs get a better life,, i think your post is very sad,, as i have said before if anything i say is not true then MRS Keizer should get a legal representitive at once and proecute me for slander, i have already put my full name and address on this topic, i would look very forward to seeing this breeder in any court at any time.. paul

Hmm, i have question.
Mrs. Keizer have big kennel and ...what? what good she have breeding? not good dogs type, not good charakter or good work rezults. Wheil she have 49 dogs if not make too breed good future?

to me max 10 dogs and ALL mas living in house, not kennel, and this people i named breeders, others is moore producents not breeders.

but this is me opinion, i not kant Keizer, but shes dogs not like me as wolfdogs, and i not see good breedings rezults in shes kennel.

hi, yes Mrs Keizer has big kennels, i worked with all her dogs for long time and no dog ever showed any agression to my wife or i , if anything most where of a shy nature, as for working although they did not train to work does not mean they could not work, fact is we loved all the dogs no mater what make or shape they were, what ever mrs Keizer did with her breeding that was incorrect then she will have to answer to the authorities, my main concern is with the welfare of the dogs, breeding and other irregularities that took place are being delt with by other people in europe, i am only concerned that all the dogs no matter what they look like are put in better living conditions, regards paul

I really not know how it works in europe, remembering that this local is public and all who want can read and understand as they wish, haven't the danger of someone alert the zoonosis control center for put an end in that kennel? These fotos are suficiently for zoonosis control go and see if it's all truth, if they do that I don't think that they will leave these dogs alive...

hi everybody ...y have today mrs c.keizer to speak about this post ...after discussions and after consult some people (friend /lawers etc ....)she decide to write ...y post for her ...(because she never write on this public forum first time because she don' t want spend her time (so busy )on and second part because this is not in her mentality to talk negativly ....

"Amazing what you can do on internetforums to harm people you do not dare to confront in a more personal way.
This is not the first time Mr. Winder attacks cwd breeders and maybe the best way is to ignore hysterical allegations.
But one wonders why now, after all these years?
He seems to forget that he and his wife Mandy were guests at the Louba-Tar kennels for one and a half year and that maybe he even built the pens he took pictures from after heavy rainfall.
Should he have done a better job?
It did not seem to bother him at that time to leave his 7 dogs in these kennels when he left for Spain for a period of 5 whole months.
Pictures of the Louba-Tar dogs are used and abused by Mr. Winder as its suits his purposes:
in September 2006 pictures taken at the same kennel were there to illustrate happy dogs, running around in flowery surroundings.
But then Mr. Winder wanted to show off as THE specialist on wolfdogs in the UK, repeating everything he had learned at the Louba-Tar kennels.
It's almost X-mas and wouldn't it be great if the forum was a place where you exchange experiences with people who are mad about these wonderful dogs called czechoslowakian wolfdogs instead of turning it into a dustbin for frustated crap? C.KEIZER"

just precify that y hope her words find sense and lightly mind .....greatings ...furyos

Hi, I'm new here and a saarlooswolfdogowner.I have visited Corrie's kennel once and met her several times on shows etc.When I visited the kennel in France we got the grand tour, and it struck me that allthough she has that many dogs, they were welltreated and looked after!It is true that Corrie likes her dogs skinny, and so do I, but I think that some dogs on the pictures suffer from some kind of desease, and this is certainly not the look of the majority of dogs. The pictures were most certainly taken after a once a year big rainfall, because when we were there it rained also and there were absolutely no flooded kennels!I remember also to have met the person that took the pictures, I think he and his woman were working as volunteers at that time but I can be wrong....?HälsningarRickSweden

Furyos, I don't know the breeder and I don’t know Paul but you can't deny that even if you call Paul's posts 'manipulation', one may easily count the dogs' ribs on both Paul's and Mirka's photos. Surely CSVs are not greyhounds, are they? I see no reason why Mirka should manipulate the photos if all other pictures she takes bring out the best of every dog?

Besides, you defend the French breeder... Fine, but two things surprise me:
First: you don't seem to worry about the welfare of de Louba Tar dogs. How would you feel IF it turns out that Paul was right and he (and others involved) will win the case in court (or whatever they plan) What will your reaction be IF Paul manages to proove that the dogs were kept in terrible conditions? Will you still defend the breeder and attack Paul? Or will you apologise him? Remember, we're talking here about living creatures. It's not an academic discussion!

Mind you: I'm not saying that this will happen for sure, but wouldn't it be wiser to withhold your judgements before you and we all learn more about the case and Paul's 'action' is brought out to the public?

Secondly: you accuse Paul of hypocrisy, bad intentions, hidden agenda, call him names while in fact we don't know where the truth lies. Your attitude and blind defence is weird to me and makes me wonder what YOUR intentions are? National loyalty or common interests with the breeder? Are you aware that you're risking your own reputation? If she loses the case you'll be disregarded by the majority of CSV owners community, not only in France.

Another question: what would you do if you had such knowledge like Paul? Keep it to yourself or display it? Any time, or only if you compiled good evidence?

***
What would each of us do in such circumstances? :ehmmm

I always promised myself that I won't write to this forum......But it makes me indignant what 's going on again.
For me a little bit strange that a lot of people has got opinion about breeders whom they haven't never known , about dogs which they have never seen ,kennels which they have never visited!
To cause bad reputation to somebody else is very easy, to attact sb. else, hurt somebody else it is easy but not too intelligent. If sb. has got personal conflict please arange it by private mail and try to respect each other. All of them try to walk in own shoes, in own way with and without fault.

A lot of person among us was very young (or maybe hasn't been alived yet) when Cornelia started to deal with saarloose and csw. Her first profil is the saarloose and please look after the results of the big dogshows.....her dogs are always on the top.
The only thing what we could do to study from her!!!!!! and RESPECT her!!!!


Edit Molnar / kennel Crying Wolf

PS: please remember that it could be brought an action for liber against those who write fault things....
and I'm realy envy that a lot of people has got a lot of time to write this forum but it would be better if they go to deal with thier dogs inspite of this!!!!!!

Dogshows means nothing, most of then are only politic, some of then are judge for persons who not have knowledge for judge the breed, so is more valid the "show" than the dog quality, we can see that now in Alicante, Spain dogshow where the dogs was judged by one molosser specialist, who have no idea about the breed, was a big dogshow but without value for who whant one second opinion by one "specialist", so that can change a little bit when we talk about special breed dog show or specific breed selection tests as bonitation, have she any bonitated CzW?
I have no idea about shes work with saarloos, but this about dog shows never change independant of the breed.
If she cannot select right CzW or not want spend time with the breed, or who knows... not like the breed as like the saarloos, so is more easy stop breeding CzW and continue only with Saarloos.

Dog shows mean NOTHING. Especially if the titles are given by judges, who are her friends, or judges, who know nothing of the breed at all.

You are right. So please, start at your own kennel. Cause I´ve heard also some very bad rumours about dogs who come from your kennel...

I was very amazed when I was reading this topic.
A friend of mine has two dogs from this kennel and I can asure you that they were in good condition when he got them!
These two dogs have very good manners, looking great, are in good shape and are kindly to people they know.
When a breeder loves to have their dogs a bit thin is that forbidden?? Its up to the new owner to keep it that way or to change it, if dogs are to fat you have lots of trouble to get them on a diet.
In the reaction of mrs. Keizer I understood that you, Paul, left 7 dogs with her when you went to Spain! So if this person is not good to her dogs why did you left them with her in the first place? And how about your concerns to the dogs? Did you not have any concerns when you left your dogs with her? Strange ain't it, because when it its to your personal benefit, you do not mind to leave your own dogs with you.
In my personal opinion you have a personal vendetta against this breeder, so please keep it to yourself or to the person involved instead of doing some backstabbing on a public forum.
The pictures shown could be have taken at any kennel, because we never see a name sign or something only some kennels. You stated you have pictures of the kennels you build yourselve there, they were made in summer and you used them for your own promotion, so be a man and show them also to everybody here.
The breeder is much concerned with the dogs, much more than to her own concern, when people who can not cope with the dogs because of their strong temper, spirit and caracter she always takes them back instead of leaving them to theirselves! And this was also in the time you were there I'm sure!!
What I find very strange is that it took you 18 months to go away and also a long time to put all this at the forum. If you are that concerned with the dogs in my opinion I never should take that much time to expell this breeder, so that is also a bit strange ain't it??
Your excuse that you were afraid of the French autorities is also a bit week, these autorithies are still the same so the risk for the dogs still there is the same!

Please try to deal with your own things and look around your own hause!
I'm just wondering what could be the reason why you always have to attact somebody, why you always drop with shit. ????? I'm just wondering.........
As I remember we have never met,we have never talk and you have never visited my kennel........and I hear a lot of roumors too but I just believe what I see...and don't care about the people who are talking stupid things....

I think this forum is for everybody to express their own opinion. So it's quite normal to attack one another here. But anyway I think it is very important that these matters are discussed here, whether good or bad. And the discussion can be endless, of course. You can criticize one another's breeding manners, but it of course it breaks my heart if somebody, the above mentioned kennel, for example, is mistreating dogs. I don't know what's the truth, but Paul seems to be on good cause. Private matters are private, why bother come here and try and solve them...

My dear, I am not attacking anyone here, and I am certainly speaking with nicer manner, than you are.
I never said I´ve met you (though I did), I never said I´ve visited you (and I don´t wish to) and sure, we did not talk (and I am happy we did not, seeing your way of expressing yourself).
All I said, is that I´ve heard some rather disturbing rumours about your kennel, which, if they are true, make me think you are not the right one to tell us how to breed and treat our dogs. Nothing more, nothing less.

Anyone can visit me and my dogs anytime and see how they live and how we take care of them. Only you won´t see any pups here, cause we are not breeding on dysplatic dogs.

And as this topic is about Louba Tar, I don´t see any reason on continuing this off-topic discussion, especially not in this tone and manners.

as i have told you before in two posts i will not repeat myself again, but as i said, the conditions are the tip of an iceburg, with so many posts wanting to know all the details i have now give a deadline to the authorities and breed club to take action on this breeder and others, if i do not get response then i and others will go to national papers in uk and europe and every thing will then be publish and out in the open for all to see, i have posted my full name and address so Mrs Keizer can inform her legal representitive to deal with my allegations, after all as you and other say it my be rummors or false information,, but just think, do you really think i would do this if i was not correct, as you are in contact with Mrs Keizer why noy ask her why she does not take legal action against me? yes i did build some compounds for the dogs and yes if Mrs Keizer had of given me the money i could have made shelters, mr Gerrard de moore and many others also helped build at these kennels maybe they to could have built them better as well, also it costs alot of money to take 4-6 dogs to shows and we all know Mrs Keizer attended lots and not just in France so maybe this money would have been better spent on the dogs living quarters as well, every question you ask i will have an answer , but the facts are i worked there i did not own or run the kennels, if you would like me to send you videos please send your private email address and i will send you some, the photos are mild compared to the horendous video clips we have and not all were taken by me, best regards paul

hi if you visited as you say when my wife and i worked at de louba tar and it was raining, even when it rained lightly the pens flooded or has lots of surface water as the drainage was no existant, are you sure it was de louba tar kennels? so you got the grand tour, then you wont mind telling us all, how many dogs do you recall seeing? how many litters of pups did you see? where you in the cellar? where you in the maternity unit? where you in front or side gardens? you like your dogs skinny like Mrs Keizer,,, if i thought or could prove you have dogs this thin i would report you to the authorities as well,,please forward a photo of one of you skinny dogs to us all to see ,thank you for your post best regards paul

Well y think that response from mrs C .keizer open mind but people prefer things rumor that the truth ....what is the real pb ????? PICS show in this forum ? ok dogs not best coat /look skinny ...ok y can say that my dog furyos when he fall in love can loose 2/3 /4 kg and stop to eat ...and when it s rain look very very dirty (and he live with lot comfort in 2 houses...big flat-loft in paris 300m2 front" butte chaumont park(45 hect)"the week and a big house in north country the week end ...not good argument for people who never try to visit "loubatar" or "crying wolf "kennel ...Y DO and y m so happy to meet both woman so so good in mentality and do what they have in their mind ....wolfish look in their selection race ...YES Y LOVE (and y repeat ....Y M PROUD about this ...) wolfdog who have wolfish look and not german shepherd look ...that 's all ...for me and my vision is that ...BUT Y RESPECT IF SOMEONE PREFER DO WORK/ CANICROSS ...ECT .... ECT .... no pb the world is big enought to have yur ideology ....well y never see dog sick or with any problem in their kennels .....y think allways in this forum yu try to discredited kennels(few weeks ago it was passo del lupo ...when for an other one????) THIS IS POLITIK REACTION IN THIS FORUM!!!!!! Y REPEAT BREEDER IS NOT MY JOB (y win enought money without this passion) BUT PLEASE STOP YUR BAD DISCUSSIONS ...Y THINK PEOPLE inteligent enougth when they go to visiting a kennel to see if their futur pupps are in a good one or not... y trust in edit molnar and y win a lot of competition with her dogs ...(y know somepeople say it s not important but y never do show before buy crying wolf merlin and know anybody/ juge.///ETC....)y thing that this forum "smell hypocriate feeling" ....Rona ..sorry if yu imagine my reputation can became bad after say that y trust someone ;;;but don't remember first and second war in the pass :informing is not my mentality ...Y ' M FRENCH GUY AND PREFER FEEL FREE !!!!!Y DON'T CARE ABOUT ANYONE ;;;;;Y LOVE MY DOGS AND DO WHAT Y LIKE WITH THEM show /BREDD / SPORT ETC ETC .....VIVA LIBERTAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!DON'T FORGET FRENCH ARE FIRST IN REVOLUTION!!!!!!!!!NO WAR FOR ME AND Y BELIEVE IN REPUBLIK MODELS AND FONDMENT(Y HATE "PROPAGANDA")...IF JUSTICE AND AUTORITY DO HIS WORK ....THEY HAVE GOOD REASONS TO DO ;;;;;;;;Y HOPE THAT IT 'S MY LAST POST NOW !!!! a lot of work in this season for me ..... TAKE CARE EVERYBODY!!!!!!!FURYOS.......

hi paul...my e mail is [email protected] ...yu can have yur good reasons but please why put yur intentions here on this forum ...do your legal action if yu think yu are in yur right side but not write ..just to write ..After yur proove can be published but talk to talk is for me too mutch " teenager or child action"......adult reaction is for me do with legal authorities what yu think but not write like propaganda here ...best regards too ...furyos

hi, my dogs were left with one of corries friends called Henery who lives in Reims, so that rules that one out,,, i have also explained why i stayed 18mth and also why it has taken so long to bring the photos out, its all in previuos posts, i have no personal vendetta, so you say dogs come back with stong temper, spirit or caracter, This is because no one had time to socialise the pups as there was to much work with the 100 plus other dogs ,, some of the photos are in pens i built.. i have nothing to hide, my wife and i also spent some of our own savings on material,,, all the photos were taken at de louba tar kennels they are now part of the evidence that the authorities have, you must thing i am stupid to make false photos then give them as evidense, if you think the dogs in the photos are A BIT THIN , a bit thin is an under statement now have another look before you write any more silly remaks, the dogs look like something that has been abandoned and running the streets for 3 mths living of scraps,, in uk you would be arrested for having animals this thin,, my friends who came to wittness these dogs cried when i showed them around the kennels, NO ANIMAL DESERVES TO LIVE LIKE THIS AND I CONDEM ANYONE WHO THINKS OTHERWISE, PAUL

I put my intension on this forum to inform other breeders of what is going on at these kennels, as Czechoslovakian wolfdogs breeders ,owners and lovers they have a rigth to know that a breeder on this site is keeping dogs in these conditions , it is very sad that you think to expose such a serious matter is childish, i give true facts not propaganda, i will prove all i say and it will be made very public, regards paul

hi yes i know about the French authorities and what they do but we are working with other people to make sure all dogs are safe , it has taken time but we have a choice leave things the way they are or stop it for the future dogs, it was not easy decision and i did not make it myself i consulted a lot of friends in Europe we discuss the situation and the risks but we have all seen the kennels and we all say we must stop it now, members of a breed clud have viewed the vodeos made by different people at different times a lot of the people cried after seeing the clips, other people have also came forward now to help and share other photos, thank you for your post regards paul

Paul, it almost seems like you are the owner of this site.
If somebody ask some questions back, you stated that we make silly remarks, and if somebody is more in to your corner than you say thank you for your post.
So you say that if a friend is also at the kennel of which you say time after time that dogs should not live in these circumstances than it is ok to leave your dogs there? They are still in the kennels and with somebody who you obviously does not like!
I totally agree with you and I never said that dogs should live in terrible circumstances so reed my post first well before you react.
I have read all your posts and in every post you say almost the same. I find it still very strange that it took you so long and that you ask people on the forum to send you pictures etc. just to have more evidence. So I'm thinking that your "case" is not as strong as you let believing us.
A forum is a place to let everybody learn from each other, and to speak of interesting matters. NOT FOR PERSONAL VENDETTA'S !

Are you veterinarian or student? I think not, so you're not able to valuate the health of these dogs nor by photos.
Anyone who know a little bit how shoud look like a healty dog see that these dogs are really under wheight!!! That is not only "she like skinny dogs" these dogs seems starving, photos cannot be the perfect way to judge details about dogs when we see the breed quality, thats almost because we not see the dogs move so we cannot have much idea about his angles as have some proficional photografers who are able to hiden little problems, after all photos are used for some breeders for judge theys litters quality in some ways, but this situation is completly different of that was show here and so, this excuse is not valid for save the skin of a bad breeder.

You can easy see by fotos all the rib's of the dogs, the coxal bone and the collumn what need more for say that these dogs really have problems and need quickly a good treatment?! If someone here touch these dogs will see the size of the problem, we can already see the bones by photos when have the coat hiden that ( too the summer coat), you probably will be able to study bones anatomy touching then! The dogs body condition won't seems worsers because raining or not, is possible value by the photo that Mirka do, and the dog was in show.

So you really think that someone will do that on public without have already all right with the law? without have real proof's? or who knows, as you supose first, only for 'vengance'?
Back to the reallity, if someone do that without all right and real proof's will be condemn for calumny and defamation.

French guy, please speak only about things that you know : nobody discredited PdL; PdL discredited himself using and registering in book of origin a truly mix (maybe GS / timber wolf/ csw) as a csw :roll:

About the theme of thread : I saw some very ugly Kaizer-type csw after a big rainfall. But the cages are big, much bigger than the ones of many other so called breeders in Italy, Slovakia, Czech rep.

Dear mr. Pacino, you should put in the court many more italian, slovakian or Czech "breeders" and owners that keep dogs closed in a smaller kennel all day long!

Or - better- you can solve your VERY PERSONAL PROBLEM with Mrs Kaizer out of this forum.
;)

Strange....because that it exactly wat has happening in this topic all the time by everyone and especially Paul: valuate the health of these dogs by photos......;-)

I think that you must read complet for understand the point

I means that suposed because only lack someone arrive here saying that is completly normal CzW look like an anorexic Azawak's and that these dogs are healty and happy and that they're a little bit fat, that what we see not exist and that it was the fothos who makes they seems like that, that all that is a fothoshop work or product of our imagination. :bolt

Thanks for your explanations! I understand your point now: any (French?) breeder is a free person in a free country (France?). Within this freedom every (French?) breeder may let their dogs suffer but noone should or even have the right to check their conditions or intervene in emergency. In other words: you love your dogs, but don't care about the fate of other (French?) people's dogs...

***
What a highly informative discussion this is! Real views of people and their genuine attitudes are brought out into light...:twisted: So far I know one thing: I'd never buy a dog bred at Furyos kennel - I just woudn't trust him as a breeder, nor as a human.

***
I only hope that not all French breeders share such views....

@ Paul

could you inform me what action has been taken .. i am a little baffled by this remark to be honoust:

why should she deal with you, persue you, obviously if you have taken actions she better deal with authorities and will be informed about that by authorities..

Further more.. you claim it is all about the dogs, correct?

Than why not make a post more like this : Louba tar kennels will shortly be shut down by authorities cause i , paul winder have taken steps that will result in and end to these outragous way of hurting and ill threating of dogs.. who will be able to take in a dog with severe trauma, no socialisation. Which vet would help castrate and nurse the dogs back to health..

IMHO that is caring for dogs, what you do now imho is trying to score some points, showing off pictures, so different from the pictures on your former website etc..

@ all, I have been to the kennels, like i stated before, seen everything, helped feed dogs ,helped clean the kennels and seen nothing that would result to me in this accusations. ( i have been there a day at a time, over the last couple yrs, not often, but often enough to have an opinion)
I saw the part where a sick dog was housed for a time, she didn't look well, very skinny ; when i returned at a later time i informed about the dog and was told about what measures had been taken etc.. i had no reason to distrust, like i still don't have!

Would I want to live that way, now that is another story, would i, in a situation where my kennels are already full take in a dog cause people don't want to keep it any more, i doubt.
I really like the type of SWH Corrie breeds, i own one, so may be "kennel blind" i care less for some of the TWd she breeds, that is opinion, but the fact that she doesn't do bonitation does not make her ill threat the dogs, that you don't like the way the dogs look doesn't mean she ill treaths them or has crossed with akita, wolf, SWD , GSD CSD or any other breed like often rumoured. (why no one has the decency to instead of rumouring taking the official way and order Raad van Beheer DNA testing is also an wonder to me)

My favorit anekdote is from a show; i was showing Macho, MY SWD , won BOB and later on was adressed by a TWD breeder who wanted tot show an interested bystander the differences between SWD and TWD. The breeder started explaining, differentiating between my boy and the other male TWD. At the end of the lecture the breeder mentioned: "but offcoarse this won't work with Louba Tar dogs, there you can't differentiate!" I just smiled and told my boy was one of those Louba tar!

And for those who have seen mal nourished dogs from Corrie at shows, did it never occur to you ,to have the present vets called in to check on the dogs and have them disq?
Friendship takes you a long way, but no judge or vet will risk his reputation if a dog is more than just skinny, and if Corrie is as stupid as to proudly ,openly show dogs in a deplorable state, shame on all of you for just standing by, talking afterwards but not taking responsibility for the health of a dog!!

Hi everyone,

Reading all this, I would like to go back basic: For me in general it is important that a dog looks healthy, well fed and with a nice shiny coat. When I look at the photos on this forum of the dogs from Louba Tar, I just see scraggs and bags of bones, dressed in neglected and shabby coats. If a breeder has so many dogs, in my opinion it is comparable with a cattlefarmer. The cattle is the source of income. The farmer feeds the cattle, puts them in a pen of a kennel, breed, and when a piece of cattle is no longer usefull because of age or otherwise, it goes to the butcher. The farmer doesn't see the cattle as pets, but as living tools, that you should take care of very well (at least we hope so), because it generates income. I think one shouldn't do so with dogs, but these breeders don't see it that way. I would not buy a puppy there, because I don't want a puppy from a bag of bones, and I also think it is bizar that dogs in that shape can win prices at dogshows. It is like seeing a model on the catwalk suffering from anorexia. The difference is that the dog has no choice ...

i have no dogs at de louba tar kennels, paul

hi so you are a moderator on this site, i will be glad to have any kennel you can tell that is not correct listed and reported to the authorities, i need hard evidence, photos with land marks, or statments from people who will state what they know in court of law, there are plenty of groups in europe who will take on and deal with these things, it is sad that you are moderator for you show me disrespect as i tell all you people of the horific conditions at de louba tar, i think you dont want to know about how these poor animals have to live and from your discusting attitude you sound like you dont give a dam?/ it is not personal as there are many people involved in this and many many statements from lots of people in europe who know this is true, this forum is to discuss a topic i think my topic is of great importance to all dog lovers and breeders alike i am sorry you are not one of them,,paul

Sorry Mr. Pacino, but you photos don't signify much to me :

1) some dogs are thin (some not) but I always see Kaizer dog's in some important dog shows and they are always so skinny...I think she won't show them if they are ill dogs. I think judges should recognize ill dogs.
Ok, they are very ugly csw but it's not a crime.
In a photo mrs. Kaizer seems to show proud his skinny dog ? Is she crazy ?

2) small number of dogs in cages, max. 2 dogs in a large kennel. So no over numbering.

3) no shit or other similar visible in photos : seems that they keep them clean, even when it's raining.

Personally I agree that I never will keep so many dogs closed in cages, but as far I know many breeders (or puppy producers) keep dogs in this manner. Is just a question of numbers.

I don't know the real situation. Of course I can trust to you (but as I said, your photo aren't a clear evidence of guilty) but I can trust too to other French people that visited the kennel and now don't think about this the same of you.

Where is the truth ? I think only you and your old time friend Mrs. Keizer wiil know.

That is not what I am saying. Once again read my post very well before answering.

Discusting attitude..... and you started the post by asking for evidence and photos. Who has a discusting attitude then??
Mr Pacino, do what you have to do, but use a forum for discussion and not for backstabbing people or accusing them from discusting attitude if they are not agree with you! You are getting annoying us!

hi, now that the price war seems to be drying up !! you may be interested to know that after 5yrs & 7 mths work & effort by my wife mandy, myself & corrie keizer after tons of paperwork, hundreds of phone calls, endless red tape, & pleading with kennel club, lynx legends puppies are all now on the working & obedience register with the kennel club of great britian, the first step to get the breed reconised in uk, we need 10 czechs in uk to get on import register, then we will put the breed up to become fully reconised in uk, we have dogs that will be imported this year to make up the numbers, it has been long hard dtruggle but worth every day, corrie has give us support from day one, without her help there would be no czechs in uk, also many thanks to robb in hollan who bred lynx, so i think it is fair to say we have made a big effort for the breed, corrie & i promoted the first czech ever at crufts, we produced the first litter in uk, the strang thing is for all our effort & work, it did not even get a mention on wolfdog.org from all the czech owners & breeders on wolfdog.org we have only recieved two private email to congratulate us on our effort, a few words of support would have been nice now & then but not to worry, hopefully next year we will be the complete attension at discover dogs at crufts standing proude with our czechoslovakian wolfdogs. best regards paul,mandy & corrie.............


This is an earlier post from you Paul in another topic on this forum......
So my remark about a personal vendetta were not far from the truth!

And I still found it very strange that you be at the kennels of Corrie for 18 months and not saying anything to here then....If you were so concerned with the dogs I think you could have done something about it during your stay over there. If you told Corrie that you find the dogs skinny, sick or what ever she sure was reasonable enough to listen to you.

hi, i see you are very observent person, yet still you ignor my posts telling why we stayed 18mths, at this time it was a pleasure to work at de louba tar with only 49 dogs, the dogs more than doubled within a 6 mth period, then it went bad, just like my post back then as you can see members havent changed still not much support from wolfdog.org,, if you call keeping dogs in these conditions, fraudulent registrations and pedigrees , farming dogs for money , exposing one of the biggist puppy mill syndicates in europe involving lots of breeders a personal vendetta then that is your choice, you seem to be very persistant person so now , yes i will give one piece of information in private email, then you will see how all i state is very true not only with conditions paul

hi
 

hi, i see you are very observent person, yet still you ignor my posts telling why we stayed 18mths, at this time it was a pleasure to work at de louba tar with only 49 dogs, the dogs more than doubled within a 6 mth period, then it went bad, just like my post back then as you can see members havent changed still not much support from wolfdog.org,, if you call keeping dogs in these conditions, fraudulent registrations and pedigrees , farming dogs for money , exposing one of the biggist puppy mill syndicates in europe involving lots of breeders a personal vendetta then that is your choice, you seem to be very persistant person so now , yes i will give one piece of information in private email, then you will see how all i state is very true not only with conditions paul

So you give a piece of information in private mail, well I am curious.
And once again I am not for breeders who do not threat their dogs well.
And yes animals should be threated well, but if I was witness to what you said you were, I have done everything in my power to stop it directly and not several years later. And you can state time after time that you need evidence and make sure that the authorities won't kill the dogs, but if a animal is in need as you said it needs help directly.

What I was saying is that if people who took a dog of this breed, not normally think they have such a strong breed. So they can not cope with the breed themselves. They made the wrong choice by taking such a dog and were more better to have another dog like a golden retriever or something. If you choose for a czech you need to know enough of the dog to cope with it. People do not often know that. By that time the dogs always can go back to her. So this has nothing to do with socialise the pups. They most socialise when they are with their new owner, if they can cope with the dog no problems at all, as I can see with the two dogs my friend has from this breeder.

No, the socialising MUST start at the breeder already. The most important socialising period window is opened only from about 5 to 12 weeks of age of the puppy. That´s too short time to ignore the pups psychical needs and just leave it to the new owner, especially if he/she is inexperienced.

Not to mention, that nobody should sell CSW to owner, who cannot cope. Sure, mistakes happen and we cannot always guess, what will happen in future, but mass producers and puppy mills are known to sell to anyone to make profit, ignoring the welfare of the pups. Saying that the pup can always go back, if things don´t work, is rather horrible. Sure, it is nice if it can, but it should be only in critical situations, not as a rule. Such master changes are terrible for such inteligent dog as CSW.

why do you keep making me embrasses you on line, if you think socialisation starts with new owner then it must be done different where you live,, it starts much sooner i can assure you, paul

You must be very educated or certain if you can see somebody who cannot cope a CWS and then do not sell a CWS to this person. Normally a pup will give not the main problem, but usually the dogs that are have their puber period.
I think that mw. Keizer is not up to mass production to sell CWS to make a profit. Every money she get from selling a CWS is always going back in to the kennel. And if she was, than there will be not as many dogs as Paul let believe us in her kennel.

-Once again, i must say, that still too many breeders sell pups to totally wrong persons. There is many things from where you can see, or feel, if person is not the right one for CsV. AND: how many breeders tell the truth from the breed? I think, not so many. CsV is not the easiest breed to handle, and every breeders responsibility is to tell about that. CORRECT. Even, if people after truth decide not to take pup,(not to take the breed) is better for pup, breeder and people to make decision BEFORE pup will move to new home, than AFTER 1 year. Breeders sell pups in age of 7 weeks without negative experiences (mainly) but after 1 year, as all had went wrong, breeders get back a REAL PROBLEMATIC DOG, and- worst ones- sell these dogs again, and again without telling real problems. Of course, not all breeders are like this, but too many.

-If dog comes back to me, i will go to see mirror. IT WAS MY FAULT APPRAISAL, i thought, new owner would be good enough- it wasn't. Next time i should be more careful, cause, as Mirka said, these dogs are not for homechanging, if any dog is.

And i must say, in Finland is more "wrong owners" for this breed, because of our dog culture, than in middle of Europe.
(comparing amount of CsV;s we have momentally in Finland, in problems, we already have here, unfortunatelly)

-Suski

Please, read my post very carefully, before replying. I said:
I disagree that the new owners can easily cope with a puppy than with teenage dog. I´ve heard from other breeders about puppies given back at age of 2-3 months, because the new owner found them too wild, too aggressive :shock:, too temperament... The pups were normal, but the new owners were not able to cope, perhaps with a labrador, maybe. Yes, second stage is the teenage dog, but once the owner made it up to here through all the destroyed furniture, eaten shoes, socks and kitchen utensils, there´s chance he´ll stand by his dog.

Are you kidding? So you say, that she keeps 119 dogs in kennels built for 49 for the love of the dogs? :shock: Sorry, but I don´t believe it, even if there was actually less than 119 skinny dogs. Even owning 49 dogs for me and breeding on them is not for me breeding for love, care, health and improvement of the breed, but for money. In this I agree totally with what Ina and Annomon said here.

hi i have photos of every dog in every kennel or pen all taken on same day, also with me were my friends from Holland who also took photos of all dogs, with all dogs and counting two litters of puppies there was total of 119 dogs, i have photos as do my friends in Holland, if you look i will put photo on my wed site you can see young czech and saarloos in ONE pen 7 dogs, paul

Mirkawolf, please read my message also carefully, because I did not say:
- that the new owners can easily cope with a puppy
I said that a pup will not give the main problem

As I also did not say:
- So you say, that she keeps 119 dogs in kennels built for 49 for the love of the dogs?
This is wat I have said:
I think that mw. Keizer is not up to mass production to sell CWS to make a profit. Every money she get from selling a CWS is always going back in to the kennel. And if she was, than there will be not as many dogs as Paul let believe us in her kennel.

Joyce, I´ve read you very carefully and that´s why I said what I said. And even after your last post, I don´t mean to change a word on what I´ve said.
Sorry.

Following what you have written, she is breeding to earn money to keep an enormous amount of dogs. No matter if there are 119 of them, she definetly has a lot more than the normal amount of a hobby breeder. And dogs cost quite a lot of money if you keep them properly. If this would be true I know several stories like hers from my work in an animal-shelter, they always end up with the police getting the dogs out of incredible circumstances and an animal-shelter full of dirty and ill dogs. And you are right those people don´t have that many dogs, only about three times what they can cope with.
Out of my personal experiences does what you write make things worse and Paul´s story more reliable.

And she needs money for herself too, so there is an easy way to find out if she produces puppies for a living. Maybe somebody here who seems to know her well can tell us what job she has to make up for her own needs, her profession shouldn´t be a personal secret.

Ina

No breeder is just a breeder for hobby. You always get money from selling a dog with a pedigree. It depends only what you do with the money.

When 49 or 119 dogs living in kennel not in house like house animal, i thinks this is't loving animal, but producent from money.
loving animal living with hes family in house not in kennel and see people when eating or have puppies.
one american breeder and judge say "good family and good breeders and owners CANN thake hes love and care only from 5 dogs, if dogs is moore owner not have thime from each dogs. "

hi Mrs Keizer does not work, and did not work all time i was there, i know she does not work for many years from talking to friends of hers but as you know i only give facts, all the time i was there only money from Holland and pups for income, paul

Having 49 or 119 dogs says nothing about if you love these dogs ore not, nor does living in kennels instead or your home says nothing about if you love your dogs or not. And off course you can give more time to the dogs if you have only 5.
But it still does not say anything over the love for your dogs. Even if you are a breeder for money (which in my opinion is every breeder, otherwise you only have dogs for your hobby and does not sell any pup which is born in your litter) you still love every dog I'm sure!

... And there is a huge different, if you are working outside home for 8 hours, or if you are not. If not, you could have from 8 to 10 hours more time to your dogs, so i think, amount of dogs is not possible count on "american style", always have to look things on both sides.

-Suski

If you have few dogs and go to Clubshows and Bonitations in other countries, if you work them, give them good food, give them their vaccinations and wormtreatments and vetcare and especially if you look for your mating partners internationally and have to drive some thousand kilometers and stay in a hotel for 1-2 weeks you will find out that 1-2 litters a year won´t earn the money you need for your dogs. Especially if you count the time till you can breed the dog or the times the bitch didn´t get a litter and so on.
If you have a lot of dogs and don´t bother to take foreign studs, never go to bonitations, to clubshows in other countries and all the stuff that helps you to find the best pairings but most puppy-buyers don´t care for, you can earn money with several litters a year. Especially because several breeders out of the country of origin and most puppy-buyers don´t realize what´s going on. You will sooner or later have ugly dogs that don´t fit the standart and depending on the genetic facts of the parents you always use they may have dysplasia quite often, but who cares.

Ina

Sorry, of course I meant several breeders that are not out of the countries of origin.