Saarloos mixes by "Crying Wolf" kennel (CSV red colored)

[hekate]

Originally Posted by Admin

What is not explicable are the puppies of Yarl Yanatos Crying Wolf looking for example like a husky-GSD-mix:

L’éleveur d'ou provient ce chien fait aussi des berger blanc suisse et a déjà eu des accident de portée entre les deux races. Moi je pense plus a un accident avec un berger blanc plutôt que le fait que Yanatos soit un mix.
http://www.wolfdog.org/fra/dbase/o3394.html

Mais c'est tellement plus facile pour vous de dire que Edit et Frank font des mix que de vous poser les bonnes questions. Mais bon on peut ce demander si vous voulez vous poser les bonnes questions ou bien discréditer tout simplement les élevage qui vous dérange.

[draggar]

Originally Posted by Admin

It is also my question - if Flash was by Sonia for the whole time of heat the problem is solved. If she was only covered by Issar and the Crying Wolf breeder took Flash back to her kennel - I have my doubts. The cages by CW seems to be in a very bad condition. I'm sure it is very easy for Wolfdogs to break out.

So Sonia / Sona is the kennel where Issar and Flash were bred?

I really have no idea- Something seems to be wrong - I hope it will be cleared and the problem will be solved.

I do to, the whole future of "American lined" CSVs are at stake here. Pollux is a very good looking dog and his temperament isn't as much of a factor (being the male) since typically 75% of the temperament comes from the mother (and raising).

If he's a mix we'd need to know ASAP but I think right now my wife has decided to not use him in any breeding for now until more facts come out.

[lupis]

Originally Posted by Vaiva

I am sorry for the off topic, but I will save these photos and show them to my dog whenever she feels her life with me is difficult....

You think is bad photo. you must see video: http://tv2.hu/aktiv/video/kutya-pozb...osebb-modellek is from cryinf wolf kennel puppy mill. see cages. horrible. every case with many wolfdogs. in database i see 42 dogs in crying wolf but on video i count much more. and many other breeds.
i very much sorry for dogs from this kennel. in europe must be no place for such terrible places. it is must worst than dog shelter i see in my life. i know tghe woman run her dirty bussines but i can not imagine that people buy puppies in such places. it is cruel to animals

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by draggar

I do to, the whole future of "American lined" CSVs are at stake here. Pollux is a very good looking dog and his temperament isn't as much of a factor (being the male) since typically 75% of the temperament comes from the mother (and raising).

If he's a mix we'd need to know ASAP but I think right now my wife has decided to not use him in any breeding for now until more facts come out.

Really, I don't even know you or have anything against you, but when you write things like this I really have to wonder why you must use such assumptions and superlatives. I highly doubt that the "whole future" of American lined CsVs are "at stake" because of one imported dog which is not even yours to make breeding decisions with.

Pollux is a very good looking dog to you, which is normal of every co/owner to think their dog looks very good.. but why even think about possibly breeding him or his possible influence on the future when dogs without temperament issues can be imported? Those without questions of pedigree or coming from such an uncooperative kennel. His blood isn't especially rare. Why not just enjoy him as a happy pet, or find him a nice pet home if you're rehoming him, and be happy with that?

PS. It's ridiculous to say that fathers' temperament matters less than mothers'.

[lupis]

Originally Posted by Admin

What is not explicable are the puppies of Yarl Yanatos Crying Wolf looking for example like a husky-GSD-mix:

for me look like husky only

[*Satu]

The problem is solved by testing the DNA for four generations or more To All litters and if there is mixed dogs. Breeder will pay if the dogs can be found mixed.

Breeder who have litters all a time can´t have money problems.

[monita]

We would like to offer you our help financially or by creating a connection with the MEOE.
MEOE is the abbriviation for Hungarian Kennel Club (of course, in Hungarian language).

[draggar]

Originally Posted by yukidomari

Really, I don't even know you or have anything against you, but when you write things like this I really have to wonder why you must use such assumptions and superlatives. I highly doubt that the "whole future" of American lined CsVs are "at stake" because of one imported dog which is not even yours to make breeding decisions with.

Pollux is a very good looking dog to you, which is normal of every co/owner to think their dog looks very good.. but why even think about possibly breeding him or his possible influence on the future when dogs without temperament issues can be imported? Those without questions of pedigree or coming from such an uncooperative kennel. His blood isn't especially rare. Why not just enjoy him as a happy pet, or find him a nice pet home if you're rehoming him, and be happy with that?

PS. It's ridiculous to say that fathers' temperament matters less than mothers'.

The gene pool in the USA is so small that every dog that is considered for breeding has the potential to have a large impact down the line.

Its also not just one dog, Pollux's sister (Partha) is in the USA also plus there are people in Mexico who have quite a few Crying Wolf dogs, maybe in Canada, too.

As for Pollux's temperament, the issues are environmental. He had a horrible trip here to the USA when he was very young (fear period?). Add on the severe neglect he got when he came here (he was kept in an outdoor kennel most of the time). I've seen the "real" Pollux come out and he's a great dog.

As for the mother / father temperament thing, it is safe to say a puppy's temperament is 50% genetic and 50% environmental. The genetic part is easy, statistically 25% will be from the mother and 25% will be from the father. Now, what about the environment? Who raises the puppies from the minute they are born? The mother. You can take a pretty good guess that close to 100% of the environmental temperament will be from the mother. I've seen mother / puppy training at work and when you whelp a litter of puppies you can see the genetic come out in the first day or two but over time a good mother will work with them, you rarely see the father work with the puppies because most of the time they are not from the same breeder as where the puppies were whelped.

As for Pollux being a breeding stud, that's still up in the air. This thread has made us seriously reconsider it (actually more than that, we're pretty much on the "no" side now). But, there are many other factors, hips, elbows, also the DM consideration, etc.

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by monita

We would like to offer you our help financially or by creating a connection with the MEOE.
MEOE is the abbriviation for Hungarian Kennel Club (of course, in Hungarian language).

SUPER !!!

Can you tell us more about how you can help ???

Very best regards / Mikael

[Jet]

It seems that "affected" are not only suggested litters of T-Crying wolf and S-Crying Wolf but also V-Crying Wolf and Y-Crying Wolf. And their offsprings.

So Admin, what is the next step?

- Are you going to stick a 'MIX' on these litters?

- Are you going to tell every'one :
till the case will be solved please do not buy any puppies from hungria from the mentioned kennels or kennel which base on dogs coming from the producers.

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Jet

till the case will be solved please do not buy any puppies from hungria from the mentioned kennels or kennel which base on dogs coming from the producers.

I do not think he has to write that people are to be very cautious when buying dogs from this kennel for more than one reason

But please tell us Jet, are you defending false pedigree´s and / or MIX breeding or do you want to try to stop it ???

And if you want to stop it, please tell us how to do it... If (we) can not tell it here and the mixing gets bigger fore every year, how can we ever stop it ???

Regards / Mikael

[Jet]

I just want to hope the same rules are used for every one here.

So long we are speaking about 'la louve Blanche', this subject only concern Frank and owners of his litters. Outside that, we only can give opinions, helps, but nothing else usefull.

But Still I am french, with kinds relations with some breeders inside my country (Indiananous, Sherdor, et much more...) I think Wolfdog members, all around the world, have to be all eyes with these problems, without denigrate France. It is not the way.

Another problem is that there is very friendly people who bought puppies from la Louve Blanche. It is very hard to not stand together with them. Some of them are hurted by these stories. But You are right, me too, I must keep the right way.

I think it is easier for the admin to try to eliminate the louve blanche problem. Just a few dogs in Europe. The Crying wolf litters is a very bigger problem... How many dogs are coming from S/T/Y/V lines? A few hundred? thousand of puppies? In every country???

As we are always expecting wich AWD dog, with proofs (Admin just said he is 100% sure, really not enough for us), is in La louve blanche's breeds, you have a picture of a Saarloos mâle in the Crying Kennel, just at the born time. I see your investigation on it, but it seems to be less belligerent.

Be sure Mikael, my voice is just a hope of fairy justice...

[admin]

Originally Posted by Jet

So Admin, what is the next step?

- Are you going to stick a 'MIX' on these litters?

- Are you going to tell every'one :
till the case will be solved please do not buy any puppies from hungria from the mentioned kennels or kennel which base on dogs coming from the producers.

I will mark with !!!!_!___!!! litters and offsprings of Sybir and Thalia (and all dogs from their litters) till the same will be explained.
But when we talk about the whole kennel: it is the same the case as the case of the French kennel - the credibility of this kennel is also missing at the moment. It seems that some dogs can be mixes. And that the breeder knew it very well. The question is: which dogs and litters are "affected". Mixing with Saarloos can give "strange" looking dogs but also puppies which seems normal and first they offspring will show characteristics typical for Saarloos (example: "normal" Sibir and first his offspring are "Saarloos alike").

[admin]

Originally Posted by Jet

I just want to hope the same rules are used for every one here.

So long we are speaking about 'la louve Blanche', this subject only concern Frank and owners of his litters. Outside that, we only can give opinions, helps, but nothing else usefull.

But Still I am french, with kinds relations with some breeders inside my country (Indiananous, Sherdor, et much more...) I think Wolfdog members, all around the world, have to be all eyes with these problems, without denigrate France. It is not the way.

Another problem is that there is very friendly people who bought puppies from la Louve Blanche. It is very hard to not stand together with them. Some of them are hurted by these stories. But You are right, me too, I must keep the right way.

I think it is easier for the admin to try to eliminate the louve blanche problem. Just a few dogs in Europe. The Crying wolf litters is a very bigger problem... How many dogs are coming from S/T/Y/V lines? A few hundred? thousand of puppies? In every country???

As we are always expecting wich AWD dog, with proofs (Admin just said he is 100% sure, really not enough for us), is in La louve blanche's breeds, you have a picture of a Saarloos mâle in the Crying Kennel, just at the born time. I see your investigation on it, but it seems to be less belligerent.

Be sure Mikael, my voice is just a hope of fairy justice...

Look, I really understand your position. Even more because there are many breeders and owners from France who are trying to help and offered their help. Even of some their dogs can be "affected". I know also that many buyers of puppies from the de la Louve blanche kennel had no idea that the dogs are crosses.
But it is why the problem has been made public and why it must be stopped and cleared as fast as possible - we do not want simply more people who has been cheated by insincere breeders.

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by Jet

Another problem is that there is very friendly people who bought puppies from la Louve Blanche. It is very hard to not stand together with them. Some of them are hurted by these stories. But You are right, me too, I must keep the right way.

Hello Jet,

I trying to understand your point of view. I am just a simple owner, but if I brought a dog, later someone has some evidence or suspicion that my breeder is using mixes, or that my dog itself was a mix, I would try my best to find out the truth, not stand blindly by my breeder. Because really, if I paid a lot of money and believed I got a purebred dog, and got a mixed dog instead, I wouldn't love my dog less but I would be upset at the breeder for lying.

Of course, it might be different if I was a breeder and now my investment was 'wasted'..

[Jennin Lauma]

Originally Posted by yukidomari

if I paid a lot of money and believed I got a purebred dog, and got a mixed dog instead, I wouldn't love my dog less but I would be upset at the breeder for lying.

I don't know how it is in France but here in Finland the Kennel Club rules are that if a dog is later found to be a mix instead of pure bred (and so looses it's registration) the breeder is obligated to refund the total price for the buyers.

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by Jennin Lauma

I don't know how it is in France but here in Finland the Kennel Club rules are that if a dog is later found to be a mix instead of pure bred (and so looses it's registration) the breeder is obligated to refund the total price for the buyers.

Well, in many countries the same could be done by signing a contract. They can differ in many ways,but still usually breeder states that he or she is selling a purebreed dog.

[monita]

Originally Posted by Mikael

SUPER !!!

Can you tell us more about how you can help ???

Very best regards / Mikael

Write what would you want, and we'll help you.

[Jet]

A lot of us, and me at all, falled in love with CSV because we were half-wolf lovers when we were young.

I m 47. I red Jack London, James Oliver Curwood, when i was 14.

My first dog was a 'Beauceron' (Berger de Beauce). It was a Sheepdog with FCI pedigree. This race of dog, is Black and fire, large, robust and rustic as the CSV, but definitly a dog. When he was my best friend, 5 yers ago, i discovered CSV on the web, I really falled in love : so magesty, beauty, wild, and... a dog!!!

When my beauceron died.. Only Pain. And after a long period of mourning, i bought my CSV.

This story is just to explain you that a lot of CSV lovers are just wolf-dog lovers. The paper, the pedigree, the breeder, is just a first good way to find our first Wolfdog. I hope there is the same stories all around the world.

Owners of MLS, of the louve blanche are friendly on this forum, or on others french CSV forums. They love their dog. They also have very good relationship with breeders, who don't let them alone with this crocodile (uhuh, a young CSV is sometimes (always??? ) who waste every shoes, every bag, every everything!!!

are they in pain that their lovely dog is not pure? I m not sure... these dogs are beautifull, as their dreams were singing all night long around their eyes. these breeders are friendly with them, the community also.
No, they are not looking for that war.

A lot of theses owners, a lot of these owners will never breed. So you cannot ask them to stop things that thy are not concerned.

If I post there, it is first beacause i like to exchange my passion with other people, and also to say they are not responsible persons.

Sure you re right, the only Way is a french kennel club action : but the CBEI get no power. So only the FCI can make the rules. A war between breeders is not a solution, there is already in France rivals clans, hate, these lovely things between human beings...

Imagine in France, i cannot take my dog for a walk with all CSV fans in my region because some of them have bad memories together, often about these subject of breeding.

I tell you... Nothing is shining in this world, so think first to the dog.

Sorry to have disturb the Red CSV colored post, i just wanted to explain it is very hard to try to help you, to help Lorry in this Quest, with that french context.

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by Jet

A lot of us, and me at all, falled in love with CSV because we were half-wolf lovers when we were young.

This story is just to explain you that a lot of CSV lovers are just wolf-dog lovers. The paper, the pedigree, the breeder, is just a first good way to find our first Wolfdog. I hope there is the same stories all around the world.

Jet, I'm not saying this to be contrary or mean to you, but if this is true, would not a random wolf-dog mix be absolutely fine for this parameter? Something like random American wolf dog mix.

Of course I hope this is not true.. that people will buy a CsV not only because of romantic notions of wolves but also because they want a dog which will grow, develop, and act the way that is predictable to the CsV.

For this it is important for some, I hope most, that CsVs remain a purebred dog.

Originally Posted by Jet

are they in pain that their lovely dog is not pure? I m not sure... these dogs are beautifull, as their dreams were singing all night long around their eyes. these breeders are friendly with them, the community also.

And that's fine, just don't call random mixes Czechoslovakian Vlcaks because they are not ..not that it's better or worse, just that it is not.

Leave the CsV breed to people who want not just any wolfdog but also a wolfdog coming from the history of CsV, which mixes with false papers are destroying.

Originally Posted by Jet

A lot of theses owners, a lot of these owners will never breed. So you cannot ask them to stop things that thy are not concerned.

Unfortunately enough do take products of mixes and breed them, such that they influence many other dog's pedigree. If others aren't concerned with the breed, just that they have a wolfdog, then it should be fine for them that their dog is not recognized as a Czechoslovakian Vlcak, to have their dog removed from registration and studbook.

Originally Posted by Jet

Sure you re right, the only Way is a french kennel club action : but the CBEI get no power. So only the FCI can make the rules.

Well, if some action was attempted, maybe it would be justified to say that CBEI has no power, all efforts failed. Has some action been made?